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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
Hosted by Darren Baker
M752 LANCE Missile Launcher. Pt.2 the Build
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: April 29, 2004
KitMaker: 1,190 posts
ModelGeek: 3 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 - 12:24 AM GMT+7
A follow-up to my Part 1, In Box Review here

As usual I like to do something new or challenging on each build, & for this one, it combines several firsts.

+ Modern US Armour.
+ My first modern Dragon kit this Century.
+ A full blown, hopefully collaborative Blog.
- Since I haven’t yet managed to build anything OOB, sometimes unintentionally, (ever!) this will be errr… fun?
- I also realise that I’m putting my averagely-clumsy skills up for scrutiny by the Great(er) & Good modellers…
Feel free to pitch in with constructive or useful advice.

2 Tankograd Titles to consider here:


Search for:
5029 Modern German Army Rocket Artillery
9018 British Nuclear Artillery

I was considering either Bundeswehr or UK Royal Artillery Colours & Markings, & since I can actually could get hold of the Nr. 9018 British Nuclear Artillery from BookWorld Wholesale in the UK, that's where I'm starting at least.

When it arrives, I’ll share any useful info here.

Tankograd have an Outlets list on their website if your usual book dealer doesn’t have the necessary titles.

I will be following other blogs, such as this: on-going Build report on Armorama by Chris Fish

Have I mentioned over-researching in my other hobby?
For convenience, several sets of data from several sources are presented here.

WiKi: WiKi LANCE

For better screenshots of the sprues & instructions: Jp1999

Video from: CenTex IPMS, Andy’s Hobby Headquarters

Build by Ben Morton

Walk arounds, Info from Hans-Hermann Bühling:
PrimePortal #1
PrimePortal #2
Panzer-Modell #3

Armorama Info from GinoG/Sabot, 2004

And finally, in British use (Google Pics)

mogdude
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United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 - 12:59 AM GMT+7
Im sorry I dont see the build all I see is the review which link is for the build ?
Thank You
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 - 01:26 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Im sorry I dont see the build all I see is the review which link is for the build ?
Thank You



Chris Fish'es Blog as linked above is active, as are the other links, the Tankograd book links I've deleted as broken!

This is, as it were, the Intro to my build, which is to follow.....
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 10:41 PM GMT+7
I can conclusively report the wheels have as much detail on the rear side as the (1975) Tamiya wheels and less on the front as well

Comparison: in MM not including axle stubs

Dragon - Tamiya
Roadwheel
Dia 17.33 - 17.34
Width 5.98 - 5.86

Idler
Dia 11.96 - 11.89
Width 5.64 - 5.57

Sprocket
Dia 15.23 - 15.25
Width 6.86 - 6.64

Not much in it, visually.

The Track is a different matter, some 40+ years seperate the kits, I like how the dragons look, with seperate rubber bits, they should be easier to paint, letts see how they build though.

Width 10.97 - 10.53
Pitch* 4.378 - 3.852

*Pitch defined as the length of 1 track shoe, (5 measured divided by 5).

Visually the Sprockets look a similar level of detail, but the Dragon sprocket has much finer width teeth, & curiously does fit the Tamiya track, but not vice-versa.
The Tamiya track wouldn't be long enough for the M752 though.

The Dragon Idlers are missing 4 bolts for the centre cap.

The Roadwheels are another matter, though visually a similar size, the Dragon wheels have poorly defined centre bolts & are missing the outer rim rivets entirely, but does have a sharply defined raised rim separating the rubber from the wheel.

The Tamiya Roadwheels, for 1975, have sharply defined bolts & rivets, but would require serious fettling to fit the Dragon axles.

Both sets of wheels have centre bosses that are not tall enough.

I'll wait for my refs to arrive before I pronounce further, and posting some decent photos would be welcome.

jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 10:45 PM GMT+7
The Build is underway..







The plates around the chassis have bevelled edges, the rest of the sides are conventionally grooved & tabbed.

Take your time to line up everything & use Tamiya Extrathin or similar to glue.
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 11:01 PM GMT+7
Some comparison pics



Green Tamiya M113 Tub vs. Grey Dragon M752, the Tamiya Interior base plate fits nicely, btw.







Other Vendors of M113-based products are available, but I haven't got any of those...
27-1025
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 02:38 AM GMT+7
You’re off to a good start. A German in three color NATO would look great.
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 03:06 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

You’re off to a good start. A German in three color NATO would look great.



So would Olivgrun, but I've ordered the Tankograd 9018 British Nuclear Artillery as the 5029 Modern German Army Rocket Artillery wasn't available to me from the UK supplier
KurtLaughlin
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 03:52 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I can conclusively report the wheels have as much detail on the rear side as the (1975) Tamiya wheels and less on the front as well.



Beyond this first sentence I don't see the relevance to this model of a Tamiya kit of a different vehicle. What am I missing?



KL
RobinNilsson
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Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 05:35 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I can conclusively report the wheels have as much detail on the rear side as the (1975) Tamiya wheels and less on the front as well.



Beyond this first sentence I don't see the relevance to this model of a Tamiya kit of a different vehicle. What am I missing?



KL



Both kits are M113 or derivatives of M113.
Common components are for instance road wheels.
The reference to the wheels of the old (previous century and millenium) Tamiya kit was probably done to establish the level of detailing. Dragon have apparently managed to get less details on their wheels than Tamiya did more than 40 years ago. The Tamiya wheels would be an upgrade for the kit from Dragon. A comparison with any of the other available M113 or derivative kits would probably be even less favourable to Dragon.
Very brief summary: Dragon wheels less detailed than old Tamiya stuff.
/ Robin

Edit: Maybe Dragon should simply have bought a lot of Tamiya sprues to get better road wheels .....
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 09:26 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I can conclusively report the wheels have as much detail on the rear side as the (1975) Tamiya wheels and less on the front as well.



Beyond this first sentence I don't see the relevance to this model of a Tamiya kit of a different vehicle. What am I missing?



KL



Both kits are M113 or derivatives of M113.
Common components are for instance road wheels.
The reference to the wheels of the old (previous century and millenium) Tamiya kit was probably done to establish the level of detailing. Dragon have apparently managed to get less details on their wheels than Tamiya did more than 40 years ago. The Tamiya wheels would be an upgrade for the kit from Dragon. A comparison with any of the other available M113 or derivative kits would probably be even less favourable to Dragon.
Very brief summary: Dragon wheels less detailed than old Tamiya stuff.
/ Robin

Edit: Maybe Dragon should simply have bought a lot of Tamiya sprues to get better road wheels .....



Thanks Robin, kind of where I was heading with my comments. I thought enough people would know of the Tamiya M113 & variants for it to act as a baseline.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 10:41 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

. . . The reference to the wheels of the old (previous century and millenium) Tamiya kit was probably done to establish the level of detailing . . . Very brief summary: Dragon wheels less detailed than old Tamiya stuff.



Yeah, I got that from his first sentence that I quoted previously. However, once that was established, why keep going? Why does it matter how the DML M752 compares dimensionally to a Tamiya M113, or some other brand of M113-based vehicle? Maybe it would be useful to know how the DML 1/35 M752 compares to a real M752 . . .

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 10:49 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Thanks Robin, kind of where I was heading with my comments. I thought enough people would know of the Tamiya M113 & variants for it to act as a baseline.



If it was an exact 1/35 miniature of the real thing a detailed comparison would be useful. If we can agree that the Tamiya kit of the M113 is merely one company's interpretation of reality, simply saying that the DML kit is less detailed and including this photo will exhaust the subject.

KL
Jacques
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 01:29 PM GMT+7
I'm with Kurt on this one. It is nice to know the comparisons as a form of nostalgia, or even to show the amount of progress (or lack thereof) in similar kits.

BUT

How does this kit compare to a real M752 (or M113)? Who has the most accurate M113 roadwheels?

If I am going to make this kit better, it is good to know these things. Maybe Tamiya's wheels are the best, don't know that yet.

This is NOT NOT NOT a criticism, this is just pointing out what I would think is a better way to help build a better model. I understand that you may not have any other kits to go with, but you could compare to online resources for the real M113.

I hope I am helping you and not making you feel bad, I want to see how you do with this build. Keep at it.
junglejim
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 04:10 PM GMT+7
Just throwing it out there, there are M113 series road wheels without the rivets. Seen here on a Canadian TLAV. This may be a more modern style, can't say for sure how long they've been around.



Jim
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 07:05 PM GMT+7
Road wheels on M667 Lance carrier:

The image at PrimePortal can be enlarged to show all the details
(count the number of grass straws for instance)
http://data4.primeportal.net/artillery/dieter_krause/m667_lance/images/m667_lance_53_of_55.jpg
With rivets ...

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m113-specs.htm
Road wheel diameter, as new: 24 inches (61 cm or 609.6 mm) which comes to 17.42 mm in 1/35 so both Dragon and Tamiya have their road wheels slightly too small, by about 3 mm in 1:1 scale .... Could used road wheels have lost 1.5 mm of the rubber?



http://www.tgl-sp.com/m113-apc-steel-road-wheel
Product sheet for the new steel wheels and they also offer the older aluminium wheels


Both types used on the same M113-type chassis (no, I don't know which M113 variant it is):



/ Robin
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 07:36 PM GMT+7
Thanks for your constructive inputs, Jaques, Jim & Robin, more input will be welcomed.

I will concentrate on the kit from now on.

With regard to the wheels, Since this went out of service by 1994 (approx) with the Royal Artillery, & the vehicles were sold on to museums & collectors, I doubt that they were updated with unriveted roadwheels. Could be wrong, though.

I mentioned I was buying the Tankograd Nr. 9018 British Nuclear Artillery, which arrived a couple of days ago.
This does have advertised 17 pages of text, TM drawings & photos of the Lance in UK use, some on the cover in colour.
From first reading, this does show placement of rear-view mirrors, UK markings, Hi-viz stripes, support vehicles, in field deployment, etc., a more detailed opinion to follow when I have time.

The book also shows that they don't have the usual German style convoy marker 'shield' on the rear, but this may not have been fitted for that period, at least on non-german sourced vehicles, I don't know.

Further to my Research OCD, can anyone link to a public domain TM for this, IF such is publicly available?
Failing that, least the correct title, as I can't find the public domain source I know of.


Jacques
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Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 03:35 AM GMT+7
Robin, nice post. Very Helpful.

Jon, it will be interesting to see the differences between the US and British vehicles, even if the detail changes are minor.
jon_a_its
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Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 01:02 AM GMT+7
For those concerned about the lack of detail on the roadwheels...

October news from PanzerArt should have it covered with RE35-494 Road wheels for M113, though the report only shows CAD renderings & doesn't say for which kits wheels they are intended to replace.
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 05:14 AM GMT+7


Small progress, scratch coat of Tamiya XF-67 NATO Green.



You may notice the back ground,



One of the reference vehicles noted in the book, is this one of the Imperial War Museum example...



Of personal interest to me at least, 11 pages of Honest John, as I was present when the last UK one was fired at an Larkhill Open Day...

Representative pages:

All photos of the vehicle show lifting rings (kit part D26) fitted on all vehices shown, several photos show the rear view mirrors.
Also shown, a field deployment, with further Garrison views and support vehicles.

The UK specific markings and details are clear, enough to read the registration markings for example, and show the location of the Battery blue diamond markings.

The combined English & German text details depoyments, 50th Regt RA use, the various combinations of missile components possible, but not the differing sizes of the M29 (nuclear/Practice) and M32 (Training) Control Surfaces :-(

Further study with other texts will be necessary.







jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 - 12:06 AM GMT+7
Quick update:

Holiday over, wheels & sprockets assembled & painting started.

I will ask admins to err revise my %age rating, as more shortcomings are becoming apparent.

Research continues sporadically.

No decals for the very bare drivers' compartment, at all, no signage, instruments etc.

No details for the drivers' compartment other than the seats and drive levers.
It is missing the obvious heater ducting, throttle levers(?), fire extingishers, and the light/comms switch (one of which is included on the cargo compartment wall).

I'm looking at Archer interior decals for the M113, as recommended on another build.

For UK markings, the Takom FV432 should have appropriate markings, and STAR decals have "FV432 Trojan UNPROFOR 1992-95 Balkan Peacekeepers Part 6" to provide High Viz & Union Jack markings, if not the White on Black number plates.

Hannants UK have ED36371 on Pre-Order with he following Blurb:

M752 Lance Self Propelled Missle (designed to be used with Dragon kits) DECEMBER RELEASES!! EXPECTED LATE NOVEMBER!!!

Their exclamation marks!!! No pics & nothing listed yet on the Eduard.cz website yet.
jon_a_its
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 - 02:12 AM GMT+7
Well, work on this proceeds egregiously slowly,
Life, serious illness in the family & starting a p/t degree getting in the way of important stuff...

Hannants now have Eduard ED36371 in stock, with pics and the instructions as a downloadable PDF, though at the time of writing, NOT available or searchable on the EDUARD website.

This adds:
drivers' compartment details, instrument panel, throttle (?) quadrant, etc, & placards, but from the PDF, is doesn't show if the placards are in colour.
Also included, the engine grilles, and the crutch that the part I6 cradle should sit on, plus loads of the customary tiny PE details.
The obvious ratchet handles and locks for the fin flight cases are included, but not corrected fins, or correct sized boxes for them.

Priced at UKP£32.50 from Hannants, or EUR €26.50 from some Polish sites.

If anything this shows up the Dragon Kits lack of obvious detail even more, but carefull study of the PE pic & PDF instructions will help you decide if this is needed for your build.

Also available from Perfect Scale Modellbau

M752 Lance "Basic Correction Kit" EUR €19.50
This includes... so much that is missing, Larger Fins, Larger Fin flight cases, Crutch & Cradle, American bumper code decals, the mysterious boxes on the launcher... but not visible, any drivers' compartment details.

This one is already top of my disposable income dispersal list.

M688 Lance LT (Loader-Transporter) EUR €48.50 A substantial conversion including an additional missile & crane.

M752 / M688 "Lance" Bundeswehr Version EUR €14.95, Bundeswehr spicific Lights & convoy marker.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 - 02:26 AM GMT+7
If we bought cars the same way we buy Dragon kits.
1. Buy a car.
2. Buy the update set containing proper wheels and a fuel tank.
3. Buy the drivers area update with pedals, steering wheel and the gear shift handle. Instrument faces are included in this set.
4. Buy the set with steerable front wheels. The clever car owner can build this with leftovers or spare parts from earlier cars.
5. Buy the set with the fiddly details like handles to open the windows and doors.
6. Buy the de-luxe set containing engine and opening bonnet/hood
7. Buy the external details set with updated hood ornament and other small bits
8. Since you didn't get around to driving your car the same year you bought it you might want to consider buying the upgrade set to modify your car to the latest version. Also includes the souped-up engine

/ Robin
Vodnik
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Warszawa, Poland
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 - 02:59 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

If we bought cars the same way we buy Dragon kits.



janders
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Alabama, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 - 03:18 AM GMT+7
I've been enjoying this build.

I have the Dragon Lance high in my stash-queue. I think its in the on deck circle at this point.

I don't have a specific desire to do anything other than a generic American Unit.

That said, I want to to look good.

It appears to me that both the Eduard set and the Perfect Scale Modellbau basic correction set would be necessary for a really detailed, "accurate" version. Think this is true?

Granted if my scratch building was as good as my stash-building, I could handle it myself...

And I have to say, I'd never even considered building the Loader-Transporter version, but it looks very cool with the second missile hanging on the crane! Tempting... Would probably STILL need the Eduard set for details though...