login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Fender number for the Scottish 44th Inf Bde
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 07:00 AM UTC
Anyone know the colors of the shield and the number for this? I have the 15th Div. emblem for the other fender but need the number for the 44 Bde.
TIA fellas,
J
BootsDMS
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 781 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 07:30 AM UTC
Jerry,

44 (Lowland) Bde was one of the 3 constituent Brigades of 15 Scottish Division - as I'm sure you know! As far as I can discern the only numbers allocated to any Brigade vehicles would be those allocated to the Bde HQ and that would consist of a white "81" on a red square (this would also include the vehicles of the Defence Platoon and presumably the Bde HQ Signals Squadron. As components of the Division the Brigade vehicles did not have their own Brigade badge - as far as I'm aware.

If you wish to depict a vehicle from one of the Brigade's Infantry units then in order of seniority you'd have:

8th Battalion The Royal Scots - white "55" on red square.
6th Battalion the Royal Scots Fusiliers - white "56" on red square.

7th Battalion The King's Own Scottish Borderers - white "57" on a red square.

'Hope this helps clarify some of the complexities of British Army organisation.

Brian
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jerry,

44 (Lowland) Bde was one of the 3 constituent Brigades of 15 Scottish Division - as I'm sure you know! As far as I can discern the only numbers allocated to any Brigade vehicles would be those allocated to the Bde HQ and that would consist of a white "81" on a red square (this would also include the vehicles of the Defence Platoon and presumably the Bde HQ Signals Squadron. As components of the Division the Brigade vehicles did not have their own Brigade badge - as far as I'm aware.

If you wish to depict a vehicle from one of the Brigade's Infantry units then in order of seniority you'd have:

8th Battalion The Royal Scots - white "55" on red square.
6th Battalion the Royal Scots Fusiliers - white "56" on red square.

7th Battalion The King's Own Scottish Borderers - white "57" on a red square.

'Hope this helps clarify some of the complexities of British Army organisation.

Brian



Perfect ! Nailed it for me mate. Thanks so much. Yes,I needed the Bn markings and not the Bde. If I may ask,where can you find this kind of info so I don't have to bother anyone or you in the future during my on going project ? The Div symbols are no issue since I bought that book you recommended.
J
BootsDMS
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 781 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 07:58 AM UTC
I think there are a couple of options:

The Histoire & Collections books Pt 1 and 2 "The British Soldier from D Day to VE Day" (Pt 3 focuses on the Canadian Army) contain organisational charts which include vehicle numbers and insignia. On occasion they contain the odd error such as was discussed on Armorama a couple of years ago I think about a Churchill equipped Regiment and the AoS markings/order of seniority etc; they are also of course, a veritable bible on uniforms and equipment.

The Warpaint series of books by Dick Taylor: "Colours and Markings of British Army Vehicles 1903 - 2003". I think you have to purchase all 4 volumes to have a comprehensive overview of markings for WW2 though; I only have one volume as I wished to study Cold War/Post War stuff so I cannot vouch for the fact that you need all 4. I also think there is a 5th volume which covers AFV uniforms.

The final option is perhaps the most useful of the lot is a diminutive paperback book from 1971 by Almark Publishing "British Military markings 1939 - 1945" by Peter Hodges. This little booklet, I feel, is key and arguably the most complete and accurate. To maximise its potential though you'll need a fairly comprehensive ORBAT of (for 1944 Europe) of 21st Army Group. The downside is that it seems to be going for silly money and is quite rare - or at least at a palatable price.

For studying the 21st Army Group ORBAT I utilise the "British Army Handbook 1939 - 1945" by George Forty, however, you can find detailed lists in say, Max Hastings' "Overlord" or any of the Divisional histories (probably a better bet) published mostly immediately post-War - often at reasonable prices on say, Amazon, such as "Taurus Pursuant" (11 Armd Div) or "The 43rd Wessex Division at War 1944-1945" for example.

or, final option,

continue to tap into me - I really don't mind!

Brian
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think there are a couple of options:

The Histoire & Collections books Pt 1 and 2 "The British Soldier from D Day to VE Day" (Pt 3 focuses on the Canadian Army) contain organisational charts which include vehicle numbers and insignia. On occasion they contain the odd error such as was discussed on Armorama a couple of years ago I think about a Churchill equipped Regiment and the AoS markings/order of seniority etc; they are also of course, a veritable bible on uniforms and equipment.

The Warpaint series of books by Dick Taylor: "Colours and Markings of British Army Vehicles 1903 - 2003". I think you have to purchase all 4 volumes to have a comprehensive overview of markings for WW2 though; I only have one volume as I wished to study Cold War/Post War stuff so I cannot vouch for the fact that you need all 4. I also think there is a 5th volume which covers AFV uniforms.

The final option is perhaps the most useful of the lot is a diminutive paperback book from 1971 by Almark Publishing "British Military markings 1939 - 1945" by Peter Hodges. This little booklet, I feel, is key and arguably the most complete and accurate. To maximise its potential though you'll need a fairly comprehensive ORBAT of (for 1944 Europe) of 21st Army Group. The downside is that it seems to be going for silly money and is quite rare - or at least at a palatable price.

For studying the 21st Army Group ORBAT I utilise the "British Army Handbook 1939 - 1945" by George Forty, however, you can find detailed lists in say, Max Hastings' "Overlord" or any of the Divisional histories (probably a better bet) published mostly immediately post-War - often at reasonable prices on say, Amazon, such as "Taurus Pursuant" (11 Armd Div) or "The 43rd Wessex Division at War 1944-1945" for example.

or, final option,

continue to tap into me - I really don't mind!

Brian



Thanks again mate,
Very usefyl intel. I usually end up seeking very focused intel as far as this stuff goes. I start out knowing which units I want to show and the try to find the markings. Really no need to find the entire order of battle. And thanks for the generous offer of on going support !
J
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 01:35 PM UTC
OK,so 8/Royal Scots it is then. Carrier in St Manvieu,June'44.

Fair amount of work done so far. Getting into the weathering and stowage now,followed by the crew.







The old Tamiya kit,straight from the ol' box.
J
dhines
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Nova Scotia, Canada
Joined: November 17, 2015
KitMaker: 366 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 02:40 PM UTC
Really nice Jerry, I cant wait to see it progress. You may have given me the spark to finish my shelf queen of the same kit. I started it along with some figures many moons ago. Considering its age, it is still a great kit. You sure made yours sing,bravo. Best regards....Dale
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2020 - 03:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Really nice Jerry, I cant wait to see it progress. You may have given me the spark to finish my shelf queen of the same kit. I started it along with some figures many moons ago. Considering its age, it is still a great kit. You sure made yours sing,bravo. Best regards....Dale



Thanks mate!
It is a venerable kit for sure. Newer kits exist that are far better but I see this carrier as a side note to my on-going sequence of scenes showing the Scots during Epsom and so didn't want to invest the time or cash in a newer more complex kit.
I think the pinnacle of builds I have seen concerning this vehicle was done by my old pal Mike Roof a few years ago now. I think it was Riich kit ? Gorgeous from top to bottom.
And ,of course,huge kudos to Brian for his continued support concerning the complexities of British markings and units. It is so easy to get lost in the weeds with that.
J
BootsDMS
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 781 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, February 03, 2020 - 12:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Really nice Jerry, I cant wait to see it progress. You may have given me the spark to finish my shelf queen of the same kit. I started it along with some figures many moons ago. Considering its age, it is still a great kit. You sure made yours sing,bravo. Best regards....Dale



Thanks mate!
It is a venerable kit for sure. Newer kits exist that are far better but I see this carrier as a side note to my on-going sequence of scenes showing the Scots during Epsom and so didn't want to invest the time or cash in a newer more complex kit.
I think the pinnacle of builds I have seen concerning this vehicle was done by my old pal Mike Roof a few years ago now. I think it was Riich kit ? Gorgeous from top to bottom.
And ,of course,huge kudos to Brian for his continued support concerning the complexities of British markings and units. It is so easy to get lost in the weeds with that.
J



Jerry,

Sorry - only just caught up with this; 'been a bit adrift lately.

Love it, as always; my only comment would be perhaps to include a bridge classification plate lower (or even upper) hull front left. I think the Carrier went in at around 5 but I'm not sure.

Thanks for your very kind remarks - I am more than happy to assist anyone re markings with the proviso that I'm not a Ninja, just blessed with some very useful sources and due to my own service can (just about) unravel the complexities of British Army org.

Brian
chrisgrove
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: October 13, 2006
KitMaker: 76 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 04:22 AM UTC
I'm surprised that Brian did not mention what I have regarded as the best reference book on markings and AoS numbers (at least till Dick Taylor's books came out). That book is British Military Markings 1939-1945 by Hodges and (Michael) Taylor ISBN 1 899695 00 1. This is an much enlarged version of an earlier book of the same name but by Peter Hodges alone. These may well, for all I know, be only available for silly money these days.
Chris
BootsDMS
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 781 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm surprised that Brian did not mention what I have regarded as the best reference book on markings and AoS numbers (at least till Dick Taylor's books came out). That book is British Military Markings 1939-1945 by Hodges and (Michael) Taylor ISBN 1 899695 00 1. This is an much enlarged version of an earlier book of the same name but by Peter Hodges alone. These may well, for all I know, be only available for silly money these days.
Chris



Chris, I did indeed refer to Hodges' book within its guise of Almark Publishing; see 4th post in. It is a little gem and is my first port of call whenever I'm digging around for the obscure! As you note, it does go for silly money - around 80 quid the last time I checked on Amazon. My own copy is falling to bits but luckily still serviceable.

Brian
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 16, 2020 - 03:24 AM UTC
Chris and Brian,
Thanks again guys as always for the comments and the continued support !
J
jrutman
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,604 posts
ModelGeek: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 01:21 AM UTC
I thought some here would like to see how the carrier ended up.

Not as good as some of the armor meisters on here I'll wager but I do try.







Depicting a carrier from the Royal Scots,evacuating casuaties from the fighting at St Manvieu during Operation Epsom in Normandy. Mid June 1944.